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An idea?
Oct 5, 2015 5:32:58 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by zedo244 on Oct 5, 2015 5:32:58 GMT -5
Hello my name is zedo I may be new to this form but I have been on previous forms and I think I will start posting here.
So we all have a major problem when reading brain activity by using fmri, CT scan ect.
1 of 2 idea. One idea thqt crossed my mind is will they even expircence the lag? If we have them under in the VR and we know our equipment has lag maybe they won't experience lag...
I understand idea 1 may sound a little strange but really out of all of us (using our sub-countious mind set) who has actually achieved full dive VR.
Idea 2 of 2. Why not using the ultra sound to put them under (put them "asleep") cause their brain to lag with our systems. That met not exactly sound right but if we do achieve full dive VR there may be a way to mess with the visual part of your sense (and hearing) to make them feel like there is no lag. Yes I do understand this concept may not work because " how is our systems ever going to know to raise their arm with no residential lag if there is 3/4 of a second lag" well if we can induce lag in their brain we would never have this problem. We could also figure out a way to maybe trick the sense?
This is just from my standpoint. I think (and I'm caught red handed as well) we are not all exploring different methods to problems that arise while making full immersive VR. We are taking it all on straight, giving us more problems to worry about
Sources: none
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Post by bobbobkilu on Oct 5, 2015 15:37:41 GMT -5
The issue with this: nobody has any idea how the brain works. Besides the fact we have no idea how to do this, screwing with the brain in general is a bad idea. We are trying to build a piece of hardware here, and we want to put as many limitations on it as possible to prevent any abuse of the system. Without hardware limitations, someone might be able to hack in and kill anyone using the device.
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Post by Vortex | Head Admin on Oct 5, 2015 17:19:39 GMT -5
Hello my name is zedo I may be new to this form but I have been on previous forms and I think I will start posting here. So we all have a major problem when reading brain activity by using fmri, CT scan ect. 1 of 2 idea. One idea thqt crossed my mind is will they even expircence the lag? If we have them under in the VR and we know our equipment has lag maybe they won't experience lag... I understand idea 1 may sound a little strange but really out of all of us (using our sub-countious mind set) who has actually achieved full dive VR. Idea 2 of 2. Why not using the ultra sound to put them under (put them "asleep") cause their brain to lag with our systems. That met not exactly sound right but if we do achieve full dive VR there may be a way to mess with the visual part of your sense (and hearing) to make them feel like there is no lag. Yes I do understand this concept may not work because " how is our systems ever going to know to raise their arm with no residential lag if there is 3/4 of a second lag" well if we can induce lag in their brain we would never have this problem. We could also figure out a way to maybe trick the sense? This is just from my standpoint. I think (and I'm caught red handed as well) we are not all exploring different methods to problems that arise while making full immersive VR. We are taking it all on straight, giving us more problems to worry about Sources: none I apologize, but I don't fully understand what you mean? Right now, we're looking into different methods of brain imaging to receive an input from the user. As of right now we're currently focusing on EEG. EEG has a very high temporal resolution (speed) so lag isn't as much of an issue as you might think. The biggest problem with EEG is noise and signal processing. We are looking into other methods of brain imaging such as fMRI to improve our research but that is currently not the top priority. Many people think we would need to put people in a sleep like state. This isn't true, if "full dive" ever becomes a reality then the user will always be fully conscious. Also, right now there is hardly any research on "writing" to the brain in the way that you are thinking.
I'm sorry but the "induce lag to the brain" doesn't make any sense to me. The issue with this: nobody has any idea how the brain works. Besides the fact we have no idea how to do this, screwing with the brain in general is a bad idea. We are trying to build a piece of hardware here, and we want to put as many limitations on it as possible to prevent any abuse of the system. Without hardware limitations, someone might be able to hack in and kill anyone using the device. |
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An idea?
Oct 5, 2015 17:23:45 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by zedo244 on Oct 5, 2015 17:23:45 GMT -5
Yes, I realize it was a very dumb idea. I was just "brain-storming outloud"
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Post by Vortex | Head Admin on Oct 5, 2015 17:27:46 GMT -5
Yes, I realize it was a very dumb idea. I was just "brain-storming outloud" "There’s no such thing as a bad idea, just a bad solution to a real Problem" Don't call any of your ideas dumb because they aren't you might think of something which no one else has considered. I fully support people brainstorming ideas even if they might sound dumb. |
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Post by bobbobkilu on Oct 6, 2015 20:46:35 GMT -5
That isn't entirely true... We may not know how to create "full dive" but we do have knowledge of the brain. You are also correct that there would need to be limitations on the device to prevent abuse. Apologies, i mean to say our current knowledge of the brain is extremely limited, not negligible. And that there is no known way of slowing down the brain, short of anesthetics. Actually, focused ultrasound could theoretically increase the rate of neural conductivity to a very limited extent, not reduce it, as the effect is thought to be caused by the heat produced. (The blocking effect is not a gradual "slowing" but increasing resistance, and hence reduced voltage transfer) I would also like to specify *hardware* limitations. Any software can be broken given enough time and effort invested, so hardware is the only "sure" way of preventing abuse. |
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elmeunick9
Adept
My unfinished/failed VR force-traking suit: https://gitlab.com/elmeunick9/Siyon/
Posts: 8 
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Post by elmeunick9 on Oct 7, 2015 4:34:15 GMT -5
Reduce the brain procesing speed works like with any CPU:
A. You can control to cpu to the point to put it to sleep for some time every frame hence reducing framerate.
B. You change the CPU with another with less cores/clock rate.
C. You make electricty move slower.
With the brain A is very dificult if not impossible, B is impossible and C also seems to be very dificult or impossible. However, what if suddenly one day every input that your brain recives takes longer than usual. At some point the brain would get used to it and consider it the "standard". After enought time you would think this is the usual speed of the world and you would interact with it without problems, not even realizing it.
Consecuences:
- If time inside the virtual world goes 2x slower, you would age 2 times faster and would have to sleep every 8 hours.
- If you ever go outside the virtual world your brain wouldn't get properly used to the time speed inside and wouldn't adapt properly.
- You would think that you are more smart, since you would have dubled the time to spend thinking before taking any action.
That said, tring to fix a lag problem making something slower doesn't seem like a good solution.
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Post by Suu on Oct 7, 2015 19:00:36 GMT -5
zedo244The problem here is that there is lag between when an user makes an action, and it registers on the machine, and it relays that back to the user. Until there are improvements in techniques, hardware, and software, I don't see any foreseeable way of reducing lag. bobbobkilu Our current model involves manipulating the sensory and motor neurons instead of the brain itself. This makes it much simpler, as basically everyone has the same neural pathways, compared to the individualized brain,and also is easier to figure out which neural pathway affects which limb, and where sensory feedback is coming from. elmeunick9Unfortunately.... the brain is not a CPU. As you said, these all seem impossible, nor do they work. I question the consequences however. A person would not age two times faster without a genetic defect. Fooling the brain into thinking that time is two times slower won't affect the physiology of a person. Your second point might actually be valid however, in that there will be a difference between a virtual world and the real world. However, you cannot double the time someone has to think before taking any action, as the brain is still.... the same. I believe that slowing down time in virtual reality will just seem like watching a movie that is twice as slow to the brain. (I might be wrong, but that is my view on it from the model we have currently.) Although my statements in this paragraph will change if VR technology advances to the point where it can write memories into the brain directly; this is however not feasible at this point, or for the enforceable future, if at all.
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Post by bobbobkilu on Oct 7, 2015 20:33:06 GMT -5
Huh. I hadn't thought about neural plasticity allowing for adaptation to the delayed responses. I'm not entirely sure that would be the case, but I'm sure neural plasticity will be important to reducing data packet size. We should theoretically be able to give the brain somewhat rudimentary data input and the brain will automatically fill in the missing data, reducing the amount of data we need to transfer, which should help with lag time.
Also, I am just throwing out theories on the topic raised, I am aware that the probable method that will be most effective is interfacing with nerves and not with the brain.
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Post by Vortex | Head Admin on Oct 7, 2015 22:47:48 GMT -5
Huh. I hadn't thought about neural plasticity allowing for adaptation to the delayed responses. I'm not entirely sure that would be the case, but I'm sure neural plasticity will be important to reducing data packet size. We should theoretically be able to give the brain somewhat rudimentary data input and the brain will automatically fill in the missing data, reducing the amount of data we need to transfer, which should help with lag time. Also, I am just throwing out theories on the topic raised, I am aware that the probable method that will be most effective is interfacing with nerves and not with the brain. I don't think we should worry to much about packet size, and delay(delay from the device to the brain is another topic). By the time this hits the consumer market the network infrastructure should be much better. (1gbps+) Also, a concern I have with trying to use neural plasticity is that it would have different effects for different users and we don't want that. |
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Post by jacobvr on Feb 5, 2016 14:15:37 GMT -5
Don't call any of your ideas dumb because they aren't you might think of something which no one else has considered. I fully support people brainstorming ideas even if they might sound dumb.
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